Finding Your Way in a New Country Takes More Than Just Moving There

What does it truly take to build a new life in Portugal? Cordelia, Chief Marketing Officer and partner at High Score Strategies, takes us beyond the sun-soaked Instagram squares into the complex realities of international relocation.

Unlike many expat stories that begin with fleeing problems, Cordelia and her husband had dreamed of living abroad for decades before making Portugal their home. After exploring options from Russia to the Netherlands, they eventually landed on Portugal through careful research and planning. Along with their teenage son and Cordelia's father, they navigated the labyrinth of paperwork, property purchasing, and emotional challenges of leaving their adult son behind in the United States.

The conversation delves into cultural integration challenges that aren't covered in relocation videos. "You have to work hard to be integrated at all," Cordelia explains, noting how today's technology makes it dangerously easy to remain in an expat bubble. From language learning (which requires deliberate daily practice rather than passive "picking up") to navigating healthcare with its cultural differences, each aspect of adaptation requires intention and perseverance.

Perhaps most fascinating are the identity revelations that emerge through cultural contrast. Seemingly innate personality traits—from smiling at strangers to conversational styles—reveal themselves as merely cultural programming once placed against different norms. Portuguese attitudes about age, privacy, and social boundaries create enlightening moments of self-discovery for newcomers willing to notice them.

Despite unexpected health challenges that limited her ability to live the active European lifestyle she'd imagined, Cordelia's enthusiasm for Portugal remains strong. The rewards include authentic connections with fellow boundary-pushers who've chosen to "change the status quo of their life," alongside simple joys like having "a real thousand-year-old castle ten minutes from my house."

For those contemplating a similar leap, her advice centers on financial preparation and cultural immersion. Join Portuguese organizations, find local coworking spaces, and make deliberate efforts to step beyond the comfortable expat community. Your Portuguese adventure awaits—castle views included.

All of Cordelia's links can be found on her website: https://www.cordeliablake.com/

Cordelia's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@globalprofessionalsportugal

Chapters

• 0:14 Podcast Introduction
• 4:22 Cordelia's Journey to Portugal
• 11:29 The Immigration Process Realities
• 19:14 Cultural Differences and Identity
• 27:12 Navigating Healthcare in Portugal
• 36:14 Language Learning Challenges
• 44:29 Challenges and Rewards of Moving
• 52:09 Final Advice and Closing

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

I've seen a lot of change, been through a lot of pain. Now you don't have to be immersed at all. We all have Netflix and we can all get our TV shows and you know, I can still watch all my favorite shows in English. I can put on Spotify and listen to all my favorite music I can get on the video. I mean it's free to talk to anyone anywhere. I remember we used to have to plan my calls with my parents once a week and we talked for as short as possible because it was so expensive. And you know, yesterday I talked to my son for an hour and a half on WhatsApp and it was totally free. So it's just you have to work hard to be even integrated at all. It is very easy to stay in a bubble and it is different now than it was. You have to want it.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Yeah, you have to want it Honestly, you have to want it. Work at it. Past the places way back a year ago. I've changed for the better this time.

Speaker 1: 1:12

I thought I would never be fine, I strive just to say I'm alright.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Dreaming of a life in Portugal, or maybe you're just curious about what it would be like to move here. My family and I began planning for our move way back in 2020. It took two more years to make it happen, and it has been quite an adventure. Before you pack your bags, listen in to hear the real stories of those who've already taken the leap. Every other Wednesday, we dive deep into the experiences of individuals and families who chose to make Portugal their home, Discover their motivations, the challenges they faced and the unexpected joys they encountered along the way. We'll explore their preparation strategies, navigating bureaucracy and the realities of building a new life in a foreign land, of building a new life in a foreign land. Whether you're seriously considering a move or simply curious about life in Portugal, these authentic accounts will offer invaluable insights and help you decide if this sun-drenched country is someplace you want to relocate to or maybe just visit on vacation.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Welcome to Mover, portugal Unpacked. I ain't going back. I'm not falling. I'll push all my chips and call all in. I'll bet on myself. You keep stalling. I hear destiny and it's calling.

Speaker 2: 2:34

Welcome back to Muber, portugal Unpacked, the podcast where we delve into the stories of those who dare to chase a dream and relocate to Portugal. Today we have a truly dynamic individual joining us to share her insights on making the move to Portugal and thriving here. Meet Cordelia. She is the chief marketing officer and a partner at High Score Strategies, a business valuation and consulting company with offices in Caldas da Rainha, portugal, and Atlanta, georgia, in the United States. Cordelia is a marketing ninja, a creator and a connector. She's the brilliant mind behind the Global Professionals in Portugal podcast and the Silver Coast Professionals group, and her passion is fostering incredible communities right here in our adopted Portuguese home. By the way, all of her links to all of her projects and businesses will be in today's show notes.

Speaker 2: 3:32

With two decades of experience harnessing the power of digital marketing and social media to drive serious results, cordelia is also a video content creation expert and coach, empowering others to shine online. A serial entrepreneur, community builder and educator at heart, she brings a wealth of knowledge from her nine years as a successful seller, speaker and trainer in the fast-paced world of e-commerce. To top all of that off, she holds a BA from Franklin and Marshall College. All of that has led her to be a powerhouse in our community and instrumental in helping other expat entrepreneurs find their Portuguese legs in the self-employment landscape. Today she tells us what motivated her and her family to leap into this life. Cordelia welcome.

Speaker 1: 4:23

Thank you so much for having me here and thank you for that beautiful biography. I want to like put that on my wall. You made me sound so good.

Speaker 2: 4:31

Well, you've earned it. And I love to really let everyone know all the things you do Because, honestly, I've been pretty honest about me. I'm like, yeah, I'm. I don't like to say I'm unemployed, but I am unemployed. I do my, my projects and my hobbies. And then I read over what entrepreneurs like you are doing and I'm like, whew, you're like the? Um, oh, what do they call those ultra athletes of entrepreneurism?

Speaker 1: 5:03

I don't think so, but thank you. You know I do love entrepreneurial ventures and I've been fortunate to be a part of a bunch of them, including the one I'm in now, and I do feel like creating and facilitating community connections is. It's just one thing I really love doing.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Well, I think we're going to probably delve into that a little bit here in just a bit, but we're here to talk about what got you to Portugal. That's the what everybody wants to know. So walk me through your journey. What was it that was going on in the United States or your life that happened and made you decide that Portugal was your destiny?

Speaker 1: 5:49

And can you tell us a little bit what that process looked like? Sure, so the first thing is that I think that let's see here how can I say this nicely I think it's a mistake to just run away from the US when you have a relatively good life there and just think that your life in Portugal is going to magically be better. My husband and I have been wanting to live abroad really ever since before we were married and we've been married for 25 years. When we were first a couple for a little while we were actually going to move to Russia, because at the time Russia was not a fascist state and we had a business opportunity there. Mike was going to be, you know, doing his thing there, and I was like, yeah, let's do it. I started studying Russian and then the Russian economy collapsed and then that ended up, thankfully, actually falling through before we moved. I'm glad the Russian economy didn't end't collapse one week after we, like, had moved our whole lives there. So it worked out kind of well. But we've always wanted to live abroad and so over the years, you know, we've tried the job route right, like getting a job, getting transferred, getting relocated, and that just never happened for us and then fast forward to now. We have two children. They're both. One of them is now 22, 22 or maybe no, he just turned 23. And one of them is 14. Know, he just turned 23 and one of them is 14.

Speaker 1: 7:33

But you know, pre COVID actually we were already thinking of how we can move out of the States. We were kind of looking at our options. Now my husband has a career where he's been in sales for a long time, so he's been sort of eating what he kills for a long time. He didn't just start doing that when we moved here and so that was like well, we could do that anywhere. We were always very computer savvy people. Covid was hard on everybody, but it was certainly not the first time for either one of us where we worked remotely or did a remote team or did Zooms or any of that. Both of us have been very digital for a long time and pretty self-motivated, you know, working from different environments. So that was kind of.

Speaker 1: 8:21

We actually originally looked at the Netherlands as an option, because the Netherlands has a treaty with the United States called the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. So it's called DAFT, okay, so I got my acronyms mixed up. So, anyway, they have this thing and if you own a business, you can move to the Netherlands. And if you own a business, you can move to the Netherlands. So in 2019, remember that fun year before COVID we took a trip to the Netherlands as a family and we loved it.

Speaker 1: 8:55

And then we always knew that my dad was going to be retiring with us or coming with us. He was already retired because he's a single guy and I'm an only child and you know we're a package deal, so netherlands does not take retirees, um, for any. It didn't matter that he had his own income or it just didn't matter. So we had looked at switzerland, um, a bunch of countries, and then, and then once, then, once the Netherlands was like off the table, we kind of went back to the drawing board and started looking at all the different countries, that, and we really wanted to be in Europe. So we couldn't do it. So so, yeah, so then we kind of had to go back to the drawing board and just it's a little bit like you can make a spreadsheet of what kind of visas every country has. I mean, I think probably a lot of us have done that.

Speaker 2: 9:51

Who moved?

Speaker 1: 9:52

here and I had been to Portugal before. No one else in my family had been, but I had come like when I was a college student. It's not like it was a super deep experience. You know, I had just come and it was pretty and you know that was it.

Speaker 1: 10:10

I just come for a weekend, you know cause I was in Spain and um, so once we started to really look at the options, you know Portugal had at the time, uh, a pretty manageable immigration plan. We really wanted to be in Europe. We felt that our values aligned more with European values and that's just what we wanted. We didn't really want to be in Panama at the time. There was also a very large expat community in Panama. We didn't want to go to Costa Rica both beautiful places to live, just not for us. So anyway, so we narrowed it down that Portugal was a place we could probably immigrate to. So let's go check it out. So we went on.

Speaker 1: 10:55

A lot of people come here on what they call scouting trips. We went on what I call the vibing trip and we were just like vibing it out. And we were just like vibing it out. And we did. Had already kind of looked at Kaldish as a potential place. So I also had really liked Sintra when I had visited as a student. So we spent a few days in Lisbon, a few days in Sintra, a few days in Kaldish, and we really liked Kaldish. We vibed for the country, we vibed for the city. We didn't like Sintra as a place to live. It's a wonderful place to visit, but we didn't feel like we would really want to live there and we just really liked it here.

Speaker 1: 11:39

So the next trip was when we at the time my husband worked remotely for his previous company and he actually didn't we did a stealth trip. So we didn't tell anybody where we were going except, like our close friends, we didn't post anything online. We used VPNs so that you couldn't see from. If we did, you couldn't see where we were coming from. And so Mike managed his whole team and did everything from here and nobody even knew that he was out of the country. We found our apartment and we kind of were like, okay, this is it. We actually bought an apartment. We didn't actually buy it that trip, but we sat down an attorney and got the process started. We didn't have like a big suitcase full of cash to plug down on that three-week trip. So it took us a few months to actually pay for everything and get it all worked out, but we did.

Speaker 1: 12:39

So we got a great apartment and then really that was 2022, and then 2023 was when we went through that mad, mad, mad, insane time of paperwork and you know we had a house we've been living in for 20 years and two cars and our whole and our adult son did not want to come with us. So that was a challenge getting making sure we felt like he was okay and, really honestly, making sure we were okay leaving him. It's still probably, if I had to name the hardest thing, that would be it. Having said that, he has thrived and really grown up a lot and I think it's been really good for him to feel finally like he's on his, like you know, sometimes when you have that backup, like you can always move back home.

Speaker 1: 13:29

You're just not different. Kids are different. You know everybody's motivated differently, so it worked for us. So, anyway, that was it. So we moved and I had to do everything for my dad too, so all his paperwork and luckily he just had an apartment, but still we had to get him packed up and everything into the containers. We used a shipping company, so you know all of that. So we did all of that and we July 13th 2023 was when we were on the plane and we landed here in Portugal.

Speaker 2: 13:59

Congratulations You're coming up on a two-year anniversary.

Speaker 1: 14:03

Yeah, and we have loved it. It is not a fantasy, it is not a vacation. Real life happens here, you know. But it's been wonderful and I would not undo it for if somebody offered me, I can't imagine I don't want to go back. The only reason I really go back now is to visit family.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Yeah, I really appreciate you starting out your story by saying you know this is not an escape, it is not a cure, it is not a fix.

Speaker 2: 14:39

You didn't say that I'm putting words in your mouth, but you started out by saying you know you can't just move here to solve your problems. You, you, you know whatever your things are that are going on in your life, they come with you. Um, we do get to leave the political landscape behind somewhat, but I think that even right during the current political climate in the United States, if you still have people there that you love, you're still affected by it. There is no escape from that. And once you're here, you get to see how the US politics actually affects the whole world. Probably I don't think I realize that to the degree that I do now, and I wouldn't have known if I hadn't left the United States. So that's been interesting. But I really appreciate you coming out of the gate saying you know, not easy, this is not easy, it's not a permanent vacation. You're going to have issues here, just like you do at home.

Speaker 1: 15:41

We have it. I can't speak for everybody, but I can say a lot of the people I know that have come here from other countries have it very easy compared to most immigrants. Most immigrants, for example, have to find a job in their new country and that's why you have a lot of doctors who were, who are janitors right, because if you're a doctor in the East you know former Soviet and you come to the US you're not a doctor anymore. Yeah, you can't speak English that well, you're going to be a janitor or whatever you know. So we didn't have that kind of immigration story and that as it's still really challenging. So I'm not going to say that it was like, but I, I now have such a greater appreciation for what immigrants all over the world go through because I'm like, oh my God, if this is the easy form of immigration, like the hard form, you know where you're just, you know you're living on whatever the local salary is and you're trying to figure all this stuff out and you don't have. You know we're, we're lucky.

Speaker 1: 17:01

English is the language of business and English is the common language of Europe. I definitely came here. I'm like, oh, I don't want to expect everybody to speak English. I don't want to be obnoxious to American, but the reality is English is the international language of business and so, regardless of America not America, it doesn't matter Like I was in a restaurant and a young woman from a European country got really mad at the girl behind the counter because she didn't speak English. Because this girl spoke I don't know what country she was from, but she had another language, that was her dominant language, but she was from Northern Europe.

Speaker 1: 17:42

They all speak English as well, because all the common language of all the European countries is English, and so we still I'm still learning Portuguese, but it's definitely a lot easier to adapt here as an English speaker, native English speaker, than you know. Like native Ukrainian speakers that come here, nobody speaks Ukrainian. You, you know I mean. Like no Portuguese people like learn Ukrainian in school. I mean no, no, people learn Bangladeshi. No people learn Chinese. You know what I mean. Like there's so many different languages that people have as their native language and then they have to learn that, usually in English too. So it's pretty lucky 100%.

Speaker 2: 18:28

You know I resonate with this so much. I was a teacher in a district right outside of Seattle and in my one I would completely approach how I interacted with my families who did not speak English. I would do that completely different now, having gone through this myself and I felt pretty woke at the time that I was teaching there. I was like, yeah, I'm using best practice. You don't know until you've been there and speaking to your point of professionals. So I'm an educator, I have a master's in English and you know it's not always recognized my credentials in the same way here as my credentials are recognized in the United States. But I remember in that same school district I had a very high Ethiopian and Nigerian population and again, we had neighborhoods that developed around Seattle. Because you are looking when you're an immigrant, you are looking for those people who can help you and it's usually people who speak your language and are your same culture so that you can ask them how did you navigate this thing that we all have?

Speaker 1: 19:47

to navigate. Why did they do this? You know there's so much, so many cultural differences beyond language and you just don't know Things that just make no sense. And you don't know because when you grow up in a culture it seems normal. Yeah, you think that that's normal, yeah, that is your norm, and so, of course, I think how I grew up was normal. But that Ethiopian person thinks that how they grew up was normal. Yeah, well, I, it's going to be totally different. But I totally get now why people live in neighborhoods with other people from there, especially if you're coming, you don't have a car and especially pre-phones and internet. Now, I'm in a huge expat community, but a lot of it is digital, but probably even 15 years ago that would have been a lot harder.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Well, and just that idea of community. I mean, I think as Americans we are an individualistic society, so we don't always realize how much we depend on our community until we are outside of it. But I was going to say this lady came in, one of my students' parents and I was doing a parent-teacher conference with her and she was from Nigeria and at the end of the conference she said you know in my home that I knew essentially about education and we were able to go to a deeper level, lady, multiple times since I have been here, how your identity I mean, I don't know, but I don't want to speak for you, cordelia but I do feel like I went through somewhat of an identity crisis once I came to Portugal. That first year was very challenging for me because I'm not recognized as an educator, even if you're not teaching. If I say I was a teacher in the United States or I say my master's is in English, people react to me in a certain way. Because of that, we don't respect education or educators like we should in the United States.

Speaker 2: 22:26

But there is an acknowledgement that you have this foundation of knowledge that not everybody has, and here it's not that that acknowledgement isn't there. It's just that it's different. People have their own foundational knowledge to be teachers here. They have their own foundational knowledge about what it means to be an English speaker or teaching English. That is different than my home country, right? So I appreciate you bringing all of that up, because these are things that you don't get in the YouTube videos when they're showing the. You know all the beautiful places you can visit, my budget and all that crap yes.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Exactly, and you know. The other thing is that everybody, when they're planning to come here, thinks that their health is going to stay the same the whole time, so they imagine their life and I did this too that they're going to lead based on as healthy as they are when they get here, and that is not always how it goes.

Speaker 2: 23:38

It is not, and some of those things you envision yourself doing. It takes one little health crisis to take that out of the equation.

Speaker 1: 23:48

Yeah, I mean thank God. I knew because we used to live in New York that I did not want to live Like if I was in an apartment building. I wanted to have an elevator, because it's all fun to like schlep up the stairs to, you know, build up those muscles, but when you got groceries and crap like that, you do not want to be doing that. So thank God, because I ended up with like terrible knee problems. Yeah, yeah, so Well, and this goes out to like a second floor apartment or third floor apartment with steps only, and then they get it. They break a leg, yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:31

So you know, I started my first podcast because a friend of mine who was planning on moving to Portugal she was an educator she passed away unexpectedly and I want to say she was 56, right around there. She was an educator, she passed away unexpectedly and I want to say she was 56, right around there, and she was going to retire the next year. She might have been 57. And she had spent her life kind of as an educator. She was a single lady and she had spent her last few years kind of preparing for this move and she passed away unexpectedly. So I started a whole different podcast.

Speaker 2: 25:08

But, to your point, I think that in our 50s and 60s a lot of people start thinking, hmm, you know, I've only got a few, not a few, years, but this is, this is you know, the time when, whatever I want to do and I can do, I need to start doing. And for many of us it means kind of a move or a change of scenery. And this goes out to the ladies and I'm not speaking for Cordelia, I'm speaking for myself but menopause can be a game changer in everything, in everything, and getting here and then going through that process or being maybe just on the downhill side of it can also be challenging, because it does change kind of the trajectory sometimes of the things that we think are our goals and some of that is health-related we think are our goals.

Speaker 1: 26:07

So, and some of that is health related yeah, and you know, as great as any healthcare system is and I think Portugal does have a really good healthcare system, I do too it's still a system. There's still some doctors are better than others, there's still some doctors that you resonate with more than others, and there's still some treatments that you want that this doctor doesn't really believe in, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. And then you're kind of figuring that all out and with a language barrier and a culture barrier, and it can be really challenging, and especially if you're somebody who's not particularly accustomed to speaking up for yourself. Yes, you have got to advocate for yourself here, because the culture here is just like, if you go sit in the doctor's office, they're not going to be like well, do you have any of these problems? You're this age, have you experienced this? They don't do that. They just sit there and they say what can I help you with, right, and so if you have six questions and you only ask four of them, that's all you're getting answers for.

Speaker 2: 27:11

Well, you know. So my husband speaks Portuguese and that has been very helpful for me. He's Brazilian, but the cultures have some similarities and I feel like, again, this healthcare piece comes down to culture and you can please give me pushback if you disagree in your experiences. But in the US I always feel like I've got a 15-minute window, I've got my appointment, I've got a 15-minute window, I've got to get all of these things in and this doctor knows that he has the, or she has, the responsibility of making sure that they hit all the marks if I bring something up.

Speaker 2: 27:53

So then I come here and my husband typically goes with me and he's very laid back, but he will take all the time he needs to ask all the follow-up questions for me. And many times he has stopped me and said didn't you want to talk about this? And I have this thing. I don't know, cordelia, you can tell me, is this an American thing? I have this thing where I'm like I'm sorry, lucas, I've already used up my time, I can't bother the doctor with this teeny tiny thing. And he's like no, you're paying for this time with this doctor and this doctor wants to answer your questions. This was a mind blower for me.

Speaker 1: 28:37

I mean I have to take notes, Like if I'm going to a new doctor or whatever, like I have a list of questions now. Now, because when I first went for my first like physical, I just didn't ask half the thing, because I he didn't ask me like would you have any other health concerns or are you like no, no he didn't ask me anything unless I initiated it. They just they're very private here.

Speaker 1: 29:00

Um, I have a personal belief that it comes from the fascism times, when you were like, really not supposed to know anybody else's business right, and nobody didn't want anybody knowing your business, and so that part of the culture has stayed the same, in the sense that people here are very private, they don't mind, they mind their business, your business and your business, their business is their business. And so I mean I even had one of my neighbors called me and he said and he does speak English, and he happened on my phone number and he called me and he said it's none of my business, but you left your headlights on.

Speaker 1: 29:37

Yeah, there's a different association with what's respectful behavior Way of saying it right Like you would never say that in America. You'd be like hey, I just wanted to let you know you left your headlights on Right, but here he wanted to. He just wanted me to know that he wasn't all up. He didn't care, it wasn't, you know, but it was interesting and of course I thanked him profusely and turned off my headlights.

Speaker 2: 30:07

You know, so I'm hopeful to have. I have a friend who is 20 years old and she's a history student. She's Portuguesa, she's Portuguese and she, she has a lot of insight from a cultural perspective. I really hope she comes on this podcast, but she talks a lot about age and what I would call deference and she teaches me Portuguese. So sometimes she'll say oh, but I would say this to you because you are older than I am and I want to show you respect and there is a part of me that is cringing as a 54-year-old that's like hmm, I call you my friend. You know, I'm not going to speak to you in a different way.

Speaker 1: 30:59

You have to really talk about numbers.

Speaker 2: 31:21

Yes, because you're younger than me. Yes, because you're younger than me. But there is this deference to age and status here, know, like under my elbow as we're walking down the stairs and it pisses me off. I'm like stop it, do not treat me like I am a grandma. But here being treated like a grandma is a sign of respect, you know. So that was again another mind blower for me.

Speaker 1: 31:49

There's a ton of ageism everywhere, of course, but in the United States ageism is rampant and I think we perpetuate it. Right, we all try to look younger and act younger, but we don't talk about our age in casual conversations here. Like I remember our first day of Portuguese class, we went around and she's like everybody introduce yourself and say your name and where you're from and how old you are, and we were all just like what? Yes, I have had so many more conversations about my age here with, and people just refer to it all the time Like, but I think it's kind of like. You know how? So in the Portuguese language and most romance languages, I think all of them, you know they have different ways of referring to men and women.

Speaker 1: 32:43

And so gender is also something you need to know. Somebody's gender. You know they have different ways of referring to men and women, and so gender is also something you need to know somebody's gender Because you don't know how to address them. Yeah, and I think the age is similar, like you need to know their age because you know how to address them. So it's not they're discriminatory or whatever. And then they'll say somebody said to me one day he's like because you know, I told him we moved and all this stuff, and he's like I think it's so great that you're doing that at your age and I want to punch him in the throat. He thought he was paying me a compliment.

Speaker 1: 33:22

Yeah he is. And that's the other thing that I will say is that you're not just dealing with American whatever country you come from and Portuguese culture. You are dealing with many, many cultures, because even within, say, america, you know, we have. We have a very large country in America. So the people from New York say, from Georgia, from California, from have, we have a very large country in America, so the people from New York say, from Georgia, from California, from Seattle. Those are all very different cultures, yes, how people communicate.

Speaker 1: 33:58

And then here you know, you've got in the English speaking community alone. You've got people from all over Europe, south Africa, australia, people from all over Europe, south Africa, australia, of course, england, america, and then India, bangladesh, and so there's a lot of Latin America. This person I was speaking to was from Latin America, and so there's. Just, you have to like, not get offended easily because people say stuff. And first of all, all, if, like, three of us are talking, just even if english is all of our native languages you might be south african, you might be from seattle and I might be from new york we might still have cultural differences and language differences, even within the same language, and then you add a layer of different languages. And then people. There's people here who you know. Maybe they're Dutch and so they speak English better than America. Dutch people are so good at speaking.

Speaker 1: 34:52

English that you can't even hear their accent usually, Right. But like so then they've. They're speaking English with you natively, but the culture is still totally different, Right.

Speaker 2: 35:04

Right, speaking to that, we had a in our apartment complex, a woman who was Dutch. Sorry, she was Belgian, she wasn't Dutch.

Speaker 1: 35:18

Okay, Part of Belgium they do speak Dutch and part they speak French.

Speaker 2: 35:22

But she was. She had a business, and I remember giving her a hug and kissing her on the cheek because I'm like we're in Portugal, this is how they do it and I remember her being like okay, I'm going to let you do this.

Speaker 1: 35:38

But, you know, it does not feel right.

Speaker 2: 35:43

It is. I am so glad that you brought this up, though, because, again, another important point you end up here in Portugal, and for myself, I know that I was trying to learn the rules. I didn't want to come off as the tone-deaf American, so I'm trying to learn the rules, and you quickly learn that. Well, I say quickly, it took me six months, but you know, for the first six months I was like oh, here's someone new, shake hands, kiss, kiss, kiss on the cheek. And after a few times you realize that not everyone in the expat community because we're expats is embracing the Portuguese lifestyle. So even other Americans are like OK, what are you doing? We don't do this in the US. I know you're from the US, why are you kissing me? But you try to put these blanket rules that you're trying to learn from the culture that you're in the United States. I really had no idea what that meant. I don't know who I am culturally until I blunder on someone else's culture. What a valuable lesson for me it is.

Speaker 1: 37:27

It is a valuable lesson. For me it is. It is a valuable lesson. And from a more spiritual perspective, like there's so many things that I thought were just my personality, like, oh, I'm this kind of person, I'm an outgoing person, right that now I realize, oh my gosh, I just totally am, just culturally, that was just the culture I was raised in. It's not really me. It doesn't mean I am not friendly or whatever, and that also doesn't mean so like smiling is not a big thing here. No, no, it is not. So it's weird If you walk down the street and smile at people. It's freaky weird. And so I try not to smile at people because I don't want to look like an idiot. But that doesn't mean they're not friendly.

Speaker 2: 38:16

Yeah, absolutely not, it's just a different culture. Just as an aside, cordelia, I have to tell you that I'm a very smiley person. If you watch my podcast, you see me smiling all the time. This translates to hello. Maybe I want to date you to people. The culture is like why is this? You know, 65 year old Portuguese man with his little cap asking me to go have a coffee with him.

Speaker 2: 38:53

I remember asking my, a friend of mine, who's Portuguese. I'm like I don't. I don't understand why, why this is happening to me. And he's like wait a minute, did you smile with him? Are you using that like?

Speaker 1: 39:05

toothy.

Speaker 2: 39:05

American smile all the. And he's like wait a minute, did you smile at him? Are you using that like toothy American smile all the time? He's like these guys think you're into them. I'm like, oh mea dios.

Speaker 1: 39:17

I actually read. You know Facebook, right, love it. But there was a big kerfuffle because some people were at the park with and there was a playground at the park and the mother and the grandmother were meditating and so the kid who was like 10, they're like go play. So the kid goes off still in the same park, but he's not with them, he's just off playing in playground. I don't know if it was a boy or girl, and so this kid's at the playground by themselves and an American family was there and they start getting up in that kid's business. Kid's not injured, nothing's wrong. They start trying to talk to that kid. You don't talk to other people's kids here unless you know them Right. So they're asking that kid where his parents are and is he okay? They're like doing a safety check on this kid. This kid thinks they're trying to kidnap him. Then they get the police involved. Wow, and then of course it explodes and everybody's got their opinion on facebook and I was like this is just a cultural disconnect.

Speaker 2: 40:38

It, yes, and we have many of those here.

Speaker 1: 40:41

Right disconnect, it is a 10 year old kid is it is. They are old enough to go to the playground by themselves. They know where their mother is, as long as their home or whatever is within an easy walk where they are, that's fine. There's nothing that is not a negligent parent. And if you don't know that kid, you don't talk to that kid. It's not like in America where you go hey, what you know you, I like your little sweater. You don't do it. You don't talk to strange kids or unknown kids. And so the kid is like why are these people talking to me? Right, I'm not doing anything wrong?

Speaker 2: 41:26

Must be trying to kidnap me Well, and they're probably like I have to be polite, I have to show up a certain way here and so it's just and I do.

Speaker 1: 41:41

I will say that one of the things I'm really grateful that we are still working here and we do have a child in school. We integrate into the community more. It's still hard. You don't fully integrate as a partner but I'm glad that you brought this up and you do start to learn about the culture.

Speaker 1: 42:00

I do see this with especially retiree expats is that they so live in their bubble of other expat friends and basically the only Portuguese people they ever interact with are service providers or bureaucrats. Yeah, they really have no idea what Portuguese culture is like.

Speaker 2: 42:23

Oh my gosh, Cordelia, this is a whole second podcast because, you're going to have to come back and that's all we're going to have to talk about, because this is like a whole thing. Are you an expat or are you an immigrant? Like a whole thing. Are you an expat or are you an immigrant? We just recently went to a social get-together where your dad was and he would be a great podcast guest, by the way, because he could speak. I feel like to this. One of the things that I observed about your dad is how he is trying to immerse himself in all things Portuguese. Yet at the social get together that we were at, many of us are like thank God, we can be American here today. And he's like, hey guys, american here today, you know? And he's like, hey guys, where are you at on becoming Portuguese? Because isn't that what we're here for? But it's not what all of the people who come here are here for. Oh, I love that you brought that up.

Speaker 1: 43:33

And it's also. You know, there's a lot of myths, and one of my big myths that really drives me nuts is oh, you'll just pick it up. Pick up the language, you pick up the culture. You pick it up. 40 years ago that might've been true Because, like, even when I went to college in Spain, in my, in Spain, you know, we didn't have the internet.

Speaker 1: 43:57

We, we did have email. It wasn't like we weren't, you know, we didn't have the internet. We, we did have email. It wasn't like we weren't, you know, in the cave or anything but, but we didn't.

Speaker 1: 44:05

If I wanted to watch TV, I had to watch what was on TV, so that was Spanish television. Yes, if I wanted to listen to music, I had to listen to what was on the radio, which was Spanish music, to listen to what was on the radio, which was Spanish music. If now there was still the international community that I engaged with a lot, which is why I never really became fluent, even though all my classes were in Spanish. But even so, you know, now you don't have to be immersed at all. We all have Netflix and we can all get our TV shows, and I can still watch all my favorite shows in English.

Speaker 1: 44:45

I can put on Spotify and listen to all my favorite music. I can get on the video. I mean it's free to talk to anyone anywhere. I remember we used to have to plan my calls with my parents once a week and we talked for as short as possible because it was so expensive. And you know, yesterday I talked to my son for an hour and a half on WhatsApp and it was totally free. So it's just, you have to work hard to be even integrated at all. It is very easy to stay in a bubble and it is different now than it was.

Speaker 2: 45:16

You have to want it. Yeah, honestly, you have to want it.

Speaker 1: 45:19

You have to work at it. And people say my husband is, we've been here almost two years. He's given a talk in Portuguese. He's probably like C1 level.

Speaker 2: 45:31

Yay, Mike.

Speaker 1: 45:34

He is. He loves learning languages. He speaks like six languages. He studies an hour a day. Yeah, Including working more than full time. Right, I have to keep working at studying because I'll get like busy with life and cut back on it. But like I, when I was learning the most, I was doing copy work every day. I was writing out verb tenses. Every single day. I was writing out vocab. I was practicing it. I was, you know, working. The reason I know the irregular verbs is because I copied them over like a hundred times each. You know, I didn't just pick it up and I still forget them half the time. So it's just, you're not going to pick up the language. You have to learn the language so like where you're like fluent.

Speaker 2: 46:40

You know In conversation Is five years the average time. That's a lot of years.

Speaker 1: 46:49

It's harder now Because it's so easy to not hear it, to not Make your brain adapt to it, and so you really like your marriage is somebody who speaks Portuguese.

Speaker 2: 47:06

Do you guys speak Portuguese at home? We don't, and you know, my husband's uncle and his aunt, lucas's aunt and uncle, are visiting right now and his uncle was. They're from Brazil and he was saying you know, the best way to learn a language is to be immersed in it. And are you speaking Portuguese at home? And I'm like we aren't. But I am at the point where sometimes I just need I need Camille, my daughter, and Lucas to speak English so that I feel like I have some connection to this life that I'm in. So it's hard for them. They could speak Portuguese all day long.

Speaker 2: 47:54

My daughter, she was here a year and we put her in school. Our kids go to the same school right now, but Camille started out in a different school and it was all Portuguese and they were very. One of the things that I like about the Portuguese as a people is that they're a little bit tough, and I think I need that is that they're a little bit tough and I think I need that. I have definitely been in situations where the people were like, okay, we're not going to help you out here, figure it out, americana. And I have to figure it out and I kind of need that, but at home I do need that reprieve If you talk to anybody who's truly immersed in a foreign language, like they went and lived in.

Speaker 1: 48:43

Their first two years were hell Emotionally. It was hellish, it was a hellscape. Now they survived it and then they became fluent and then things got better. But, like one lady I was talking to moved to Germany and she, then she moved here. So she lived in Germany for like 20 years and I guess she must've lived in a, maybe she was married to a German or something, but I mean she basically never spoke English and she said there's, it is so nice to just like speak my own language again. Yeah, which again gives me compassion for the immigrants. I did not really have a lot of compassion Like I get like you thought I was woke and thought I was like in tune and you know what I mean, but there is a comfort in your own native language that nothing else is the same.

Speaker 2: 49:35

Well, and some things don't translate right. I mean, sometimes you know, I'll find myself. I made a joke yesterday to Lucas's aunt and uncle and I had to ask him did that translate? And he's like yeah, you're good, you know it translated, but it's some things just don't translate I went to the hardware store and I looked the word up before I went.

Speaker 1: 50:02

I can't remember what it is, but I asked for a tape gun, like a literal translation of a tape gun. So in america, a tape gun is this round thing that you use to dispense tape. It's called a tape dispenser in Portuguese. Yes, he thought I was. He's like a tape gun. Why would you, why would the word gun be involved in that Like? And I was thinking about I'm like, I don't know, it doesn't even look like a gun, like I don't even know why you would call it a gun Right, cause it has a handle. I guess it has like it. But it was just so. But yeah, it doesn't always translate. So.

Speaker 2: 50:42

So what has been the most challenging thing about this move for you?

Speaker 1: 50:48

The most challenging thing for me has been I've had a lot of health issues since we moved here, and so I have not really lived the European dream that I thought that I saw in America.

Speaker 1: 51:01

You know I haven't been walking all over the place I don't get my 10,000 steps a day because I've had a lot of mobility issues which I am working on and resolving and all this other stuff, but that has been really hard to just. You know, and I think everybody comes to this at some point you know you're not living a fantasy, you're not living a vacation, and I think everybody comes to this at some point. You know you're you're not living a fantasy, you're not living a vacation, but I had hoped to live the vacation for a little bit longer than I got to, so that's been really hard. And then just missing my adult son, who is still in the U? S. And what's been the best thing? Um, I think one of the best things besides just, I do love living here and I love being in Europe, but I don't like my husband, cause he loves languages. Being in a room full of people speaking like a different language is like heaven for him. Or being in even a room full of people Everybody's speaking Portuguese and he's just there. He's like in heaven.

Speaker 1: 52:00

For me, like you, it feels a little bit like disconnected. So what was the question again, what's the best thing about being here? So the best thing has been for me, the kind of people that I've met as friends, which mostly are international people I have a few Portuguese friends, but it's very different kind of relationship is just meeting so many people that have decided to change the status quo of their life, because those are people I really like. I liked those people in the US and I like those people here. I like people who look around and they're like this is not what I think I want my life to look like, and they do something about it. And so I've met so many people like that and they're all so different. I find it very interesting and I really enjoy it. And then, of course, I do just love that I have a castle 10 minutes from my house.

Speaker 1: 52:58

Who doesn't love that. Like a real thousand-year-old castle, not like a building that was made 50 years ago. That looks like a castle, yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:08

So what advice would you have for anyone considering this kind of move?

Speaker 1: 53:13

Make sure that you really have your finances as orderly as you can, that you really have your finances as orderly as you can and just be ready to adapt to the unknown, because no matter how good a planner you are, like there's just things that are going to come up. And then I would say find some way to you know, for us working and being in a co-working space and getting involved in, like nonprofits that are Portuguese, like get involved somehow in the culture here, like do not just stay in your bubble, yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:49

Cordelia, I really appreciate you coming here and sharing your journey. Is there anything else you want to share with us before we go?

Speaker 1: 53:56

I will just say real quick you know we did move our company here and if anyone has questions about that, I'm happy to try to help with that too. And just thank you for having me on and thank you if anybody actually listened this long into the podcast. Thank you for your attention and thank you for asking me, melissa.

Speaker 2: 54:15

Oh, my pleasure.

Speaker 1: 54:26

All of Cordelia's links to all the cool things she's doing will be in today's show notes.

Speaker 2: 54:31

Thank you so much, cordelia. Thank you, melissa. See you soon Still nobody knows, but I'ma choose what's right and take what comes and goes. And ain't no one in life holding me back, no more. Today's episode was produced and edited by me. The theme music is the song A Year Ago by Nefex.

Speaker 2: 54:51

If you know someone contemplating a move or visit to Portugal, please share this podcast. It's as simple as copying the link you use to access it and sharing it with others you think would benefit from it. You can find Mouver Portugal Unpacked on Apple, spotify, amazon, youtube and Buzzsprout. All links to all platforms can be found in today's show notes and at taughtspotcom. Be sure to comment, like and subscribe.

Speaker 2: 55:24

Just a gentle reminder Mouverre Portugal Unpacked is for entertainment purposes only. It should not take the place of professional or legal advice. The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by the host and guests are their own. They reflect nothing more than that. All experiences are expressed through the filter of the individual. And hey, this is Portugal. We can all have very different experiences doing the exact same thing here. So please do your own research and discuss your options with qualified professionals before making this or any other decision. And a final note any opinions or thoughts expressed during this podcast are not meant to malign any group or organization. This is Melissa LaFleur. Thank you for unpacking today's portion of the path to Portugal with me Way back a year ago.